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Migration has brought 'zero' economic benefit
By Philip Johnston and Robert Winnett
Last Updated: 1:11am GMT 29/03/2008

Ten years of record immigration to Britain has produced virtually no economic benefits for the country, a parliamentary inquiry has found.

Have your say: Has immigration been good for Britain?
A House of Lords committee, which is due to report next Tuesday, will call into question Government claims that foreign workers add £6 billion each year to the wealth of the nation.

It is expected to say this must be balanced against the increase in population and their use of local services such as health and education, resulting in little benefit per head of the population.

"Our overall conclusion is that the economic benefits of net immigration to the resident population are small and close to zero in the long run," the report will say.

The findings of the Lords economics committee threaten to demolish the key argument made by ministers to justify the highest levels of immigration in the country's history.

The inquiry by the committee, which includes two former chancellors and several former Cabinet ministers, is the first to try to balance the costs and benefits of large-scale immigration.

The population is increasing by more than 190,000 every year, largely as a result of immigration.

Foreign workers now make up 12.5 per cent of the labour force, compared with 7.4 per cent a decade ago. Critics say Labour lost control of the borders, issued too many work permits and should not have opened up the labour market to eastern Europe.

However, ministers say that without large-scale immigration there would have been slower economic growth.

A Whitehall paper produced for the committee said average output growth over the past five years was 2.7 per cent a year and migration contributed an estimated 15 to 20 per cent of this. The Government said this indicated a contribution of £6 billion - or £700,000 a day- from foreign workers.

However, the committee's final report is expected to say the Government should have focused on the impact of immigration on GDP per head, not the economy as a whole.

David Coleman, a professor of demography at Oxford University, said in his evidence to the committee that the Government had excluded costs from crime, security, the race relations process, health "tourism" and imported ailments such as TB.

Richard Pearson, a visiting professor at the University of Sussex's Centre for Migration Research, said: "While migrants have clearly helped alleviate often long-standing skill shortages, they have also filled many low-skilled jobs, often at very low wages.

"These migrants are likely to be displacing, and reducing the incentive on employers to recruit and train low-skilled, indigenous workers.''

Comments
Without Victoria and especially Albert (immigrant that he was) there would be no British culture.
Who now is willing to fight to the death to protect our raped earth and crippled monarchy?
Not enough.
Some of us choose to stay alive and here even though suicide or immigration are easier. We know we have no chance of a life but we care
enough for our ancestors and memories of place to stay put and die in situ.
See you, in passing, on the blood river streets.
Posted by Sarita on March 29, 2008 6:30 PM

Immigration has done immense harm to our country. It has devastated entire communities and destroyed a way of life. The consequent propaganda campaign has, notoriously, even tried to destroy the truth. For the truth is that the whole mass immigration project, from the very beginning, was carried out against the wishes of most British people, and was done in the utmost bad faith with a drunken recklessess which must increasingly be recognised as criminal. Of course there is no economic benefit from mass immigration. On the contrary, there is a heavy price to pay, the price of a broken society, the price of constant vigilance of the hostile foreign communities which have been allowed to flourish here, the price of high rates of violent crime. It is time that those responsible for the catastrophe started paying. And it is time to look soberly at the chaotic mess created by the power-drunk authorities and start putting it right. Mass immigration needs to be stopped and, to a significant extent, reversed. Those responsible must be punished.
Posted by SG on March 29, 2008 6:27 PM

How I laugh when I hear the colonel Blimps on this page ranting on about those damn foreign chaps in the EU.
Why, once again, do we seem to suffer a good deal more than anyone else in the EU? Why is it that Britain, with it's lax (? Non-exixtant?)
controls, it's "maulticutural" policy and its lazy, uneducated, good-for-nothing "work" force, seen as a soft target?
For goodness sake put the blame where it truly belongs - this shambles of a government we keep electing and their socialist/liberal ilk.
Also our archaic and corrupt ministries, councils and civil service, which will only see negligable improvement once the Labour rabble are rightly
despatched to the bin (not to be recycled - please!)
Posted by Pinkie on March 29, 2008 6:16 PM

I have read so many comments on this topic, it is clear what people think. Can we look forward to our politicians changing anything? Are they too busy completing their expenses claims to take note of public opinion?
Posted by M.Marchant on March 29, 2008 6:14 PM

This repugnantly racist policy of ethnic replacement is tantamount to slow genocide. The UK is a signatory to the UN Genocide Convention and has pledged to punish those who commit genocide. As it seems unlikely this racist Labour regime will prosecute itself, the people will have to do it.
Posted by IM Archer on March 29, 2008 5:51 PM

I think immigration on the scale that it has been allowed is wholly bad for Britain. Firstly the sheer numbers has made us overcrowded, thus reducing everyone's quality of life. Public services, transport and housing have all suffered. Taxes are up because of the numbers and the whole economy is overheated. At the same time, our culture has been destroyed and terrorists live in our land. Our politicians should be ashamed. When did we get the chance to vote on the strategy they have adopted? If I were younger I would become an immigrant to another more sensible country.
Posted by John D. Healey on March 29, 2008 5:40 PM

I also oppose mass immigration but I must laugh about all the british expats ranting from Thailand, australia France etc
Pot Kettle Black
Posted by PT on March 29, 2008 5:36 PM

The whole immigration experience is
motivated by the endless hatred that the Labour party has for the ethnic English people and combined with that parties politicians culpable mismanagement and deliberate spite. But as English people have done absolutely nothing over the last forty years to vote against immigration, then one must conclude that irrespective of all their whinging and whining, that they have no problem about being replaced in their own country by aliens. So it is all a bit of a quandary.
Posted by Grahamc on March 29, 2008 5:34 PM

Scroll back and read Frederick Higgins comment. Of all the posters here, he is the only one to hit on the real cause of this flood of third worlders and who is behind it all. Who benefits from the breakup of our country. Who wants to get rid of the whole idea of soveriegnity and patriotism? Why is our history an optional subject for schoolchildren? Why are the Tories not capitalising on this obvious discontent of the indigenous Brits? Why are they so quiet on the subject?
Could it be they are taking orders from the same people as Labour?
Posted by Des Brittain on March 29, 2008 5:29 PM

Welcome to the 21st century Balkans.. i dont think even nu labour realise
what they are unleashing on our sceptred isle..an utter nightmare.
If i was younger i would definitely emigrate as i have told my children to do.
Posted by harry on March 29, 2008 5:17 PM

The whole immigration experience is motivated by the endless hatred that the Labour party has for the ethnic English people and combined with that parties politicians culpable mismanagement and deliberate spite.
But as English people have done absolutely nothing over the last forty years to vote against immigration, then one must conclude that irrespective of all their whinging and whining, that they have no problem about being replaced in their own country by aliens. So it is all a bit of a quandary.
Posted by Grahamc on March 29, 2008 5:14 PM

Absolutely not! Our country and culture is being dissolved by these millions of unwanted immigrants. Our capital city is no longer English and most of our other big cities are heading in the same direction. Of course it is too late now. The damage is done. Nature will now takes it's course. Barn door, horse bolted.
Posted by Des on March 29, 2008 5:08 PM

It took a Parliamentary Committe how long to reach this conclusion?
Posted by Simple Sailor on March 29, 2008 4:37 PM

The British seem to have forgotten the lessons of WW II, at the end of which millions upon millions of people were forcibly thrown of of the countries of their birth for no other reason than not being ethnic. This program was enthusiastically supported by Churchill who felt that having ethnic enclaves in a country was a danger, the sort of danger that is
now evident in most of Europe.
Posted by ciccio on March 29, 2008 4:28 PM

Good for Britain? - Catastrophic, more like...
Posted by Margaret Wilde on March 29, 2008 4:26 PM

Immigration has smothered and colonised England. It will ultimately expand to Wales and Scotland - demographics are such they will need more space, more colonisation. The great danger to democracy and culture in Britain is not the Polish plumber - Poles WORK - the aim of the majority is to earn and save enough money to return to their homeland.
The real danger which, even DT contributors seem reluctant to name, is Islam. British democracy does NOT mean 'submission' of the majority to the diktats of a religious minority yet that is what the majority of indigenous Brits and third/fourth generation immigrants are required to do on a daily basis - submit or face terror. No other minority in Britain poses such a drain on social services - maternity, mental health, housing, huge families, education, translation services, unemployment benefits, welfare benefits for multiple wives etc etc. No other minority in Britain regards itself as morally superior to the indigenous population, no other minority colonises and establishes 'no-go' areas in major English cities.
Fundamentally, Muslims will never assimilate for they cannot 'live by' the tenets of what is a true, living democracy but they can avail themselves of its benefits. To assimilate would mean relinquishing their faith in order to compromise for something abhorrent and NOT allowed under Islam. That 'something' is the full acceptance of equality between Muslim and non-Muslim. The arrogant demands made by Muslim leaders on the resources of the tax-paying majority, and the hatred preached by 'radical' Imams, is all grounded in the basic teachings of Islam.
From birth it is inculcated that they are SUPERIOR to all we infidels and Jews. So superior indeed that it is their right to enter our nation, colonise, segregate, riot, terrorise and demand every benefit western democracy offers. It should be remembered too that focus on Pakistani or ME Muslims is short-sighted; MANY Africans presently entering Britain from places like Nigeria and Somalia are Muslim and equally brain-washed in an ethos of 'rights' to be exacted from the indigenous dhimmi.
Posted by KateScott on March 29, 2008 4:23 PM

Corny as it sounds, I have several friends of different nationalities and ethnicities and we get along fine. They are all decent people with worthwhile jobs. My life has been the better for them. If that had been the universal result of Labour's immigration policies, only the nutters would have anything to complain about. But, as we all know, things didn't turn out that way. It has been a disaster. The "pack-'em-in regardless" approach has done possibly the worst thing you can do to any nation - destroy its national identity. A shame, really, because Britain was once the best place in the world.
Consider also New Labour's contempt for the ordinary British citizen and I am left wanting to see the whole stinking lot of them put on trial for treason. Yes, and watch them swing. What they have done is quite simply unforgiveable.
Posted by Howard on March 29, 2008 4:19 PM

I guess the smell of urban Britain has altered!---thankgoodness it doesn't smell of chippies and breweries!! Social engineering has failed though, big time. Posted by community stirrer, on March 29, 2008 4:19 PM

The Great British public seemed to think it was a perfectly grand profession to forcibly occupy half the known world, subjugate its people, rape the land of its resources and beat and torture the "natives" into submission. In fact, the distinguished individuals who committed the most heinous acts were honoured for their outstanding work.
Two hundred-odd years of slavery, colonisation and plundering the wealth of other countries could make any nation rich. I doubt if any of the countries responsible for the "undesirable" immigrants can claim to have committed criminal acts on quite the same scale as the British. It seems to me that the British have become used to taking rather than creating.
If the British are so proud of their own skilled workers, then why has the NHS ben so dependent on foreign doctors and nurses? Why can't the yobs on state benefits stop producing nine and more children and look for jobs instead? Why can't the "skilled" British worker actually do some work and compete with employees from other countries instead of whining? Maybe he would have to lose out on the nightly pint at the pub and weekend siestas.
If the comments here are anything to go by, the Great British White Christian Educated Middle Class should perhaps switch allegiance from the Tories to the BNP.
Posted by Ashamed on March 29, 2008 4:08 PM

The political class of this country has committed treason against the British people by imposing their multi-cultural shangri-la on us. I never wanted it then, I don't want it now and I will vote for anyone who promises to get us out of this mess even if that someone is the BNP.
Posted by Mark (London) on March 29, 2008 4:07 PM

The political class of this country has committed treason against the British people by imposing their multi-cultural shangri-la on us. I never wanted it then, I don't want it now and I will vote for anyone who promises to get us out of this mess even if that someone is the BNP.
Posted by Mark (London) on March 29, 2008 4:00 PM

Whatever the causes of open house migration into the UK, there is general agreement that "multiculturalism" is a failed social experiment and these islands are significantly overcrowded. We need realistic, humane, sensible, just and efficient policies to reverse the inflow and shrink the population down to manageable numbers - say 30 million.... still 13 million more than the island can feed. The alternative is to face social, economic and ecological melt down. This means amongst other things leaving the EU. Unless and until we accept this the UK is bound to become increasingly more unpleasant place for us all to live in.
Posted by simon snape on March 29, 2008 3:58 PM

Most of us knew this already as a matter of fact. It is naturally very much appreciated to hear the confirmation however. The Report is very ''tongue in cheek'', it has not dared to stray beyond its remit by taking a good look at the societal consequences we, the people have paid, for this rabid attempt at New Labour Gerrymandering. Immigration is a massive issue that has tarnished our country, and badly, for the sake of a few loony marxists who want to rule forever. How about real discussion on stopping Immigration cold?... Or is that a non PC question?...
Well heres the thing; I don't care. It wasn't very correct to give our country into governance by a club of foreigners, who all somehow felt the voting electorate would have spoiled their elitist and antidemocratic power grab had we been consulted via a referendum. Nor were we asked at any stage if we wanted our country filled with the contents of babel. NO we were not asked but we damned well should have been.
Brown knows he deserves a trial for treason and has no hope of reelection, so has set his hat on importing the necessary votes. If asked whether he feels may be acting despotically he will leave the New Labour philosopher Ed Balls to answer...SO WHAT!!!! is the likely reply.
Posted by harry fredericks on March 29, 2008 3:49 PM

There always was immigration and some was very good and important: we just let uncontrolled chaos and false promises prevail on all fronts. Now we have serious permanent economic, social and infrasructure problems, including healthcare, education and transport problems attributable not just to our own "core" population but to supporting large numbers of people we just cannot afford to take care of... and many of those are our "own people" who have either been coddled into social support and/or who have been dispalced from their jobs by lower cost (and better "value") workers.
We have also become a "re-identity haven" whereby thugs/criminals from other countries can come into the UK with partial identity papers and start with new unblemished identities to go back to their now well-honed criminal skills... and don't let the "lies/liars of technology" tell you otherwise, we cannot get around these problems without closing the gates and trying to purge from inside. We haven't felt even close to the most expensive and worst part of the problems as we can't "send back" recent arrivals and their now UK-born children, and the indolent lazy Brits are hardpressed to get off their bottoms and get back on the job. And over the next few years the wage and benefits level required by these immigrants will be very close if not exactly the same as our own Brit workforce and all we will have is more mouths to feed without benefit of increased jobs. And the low-wage high-yield jobs and workers will still be located in China, India and many places other than the UK. We are in deep mud going forward with no way out. Greedy, lousey, destructive NuLabour. We are becoming the movie "Children of Men" very quickly as well as "1984".
Posted by Henry Cave Devine on March 29, 2008 3:20 PM

Ex Conservative on March 29, 2008 2:54 PM
Absolutely!! as another ex Tory I am ashamed and disgusted by the conservatives lack of direction or backbone, led by a complete out of touch wimp. This disaster has been designed by the most destructive and incompetent government Britain has ever seen, with, it must be said the approval of the other two parties. I to have been saying the same as you, that Britains only hope is the policies that the BNP offer, which if you take the time to look are good old fashioned Tory policies. Wake up people and try to save what is left before that to is destroyed!!
Posted by John Korn on March 29, 2008 3:19 PM

Yes, immigration is out of control and this situation must change, but the problem with the UK and the reason immigrants have come here in such numbers is because there haven't been enough skilled, hard working, well mannered, bright British workers to go around. The British working classes can moan about immigrants taking their jobs and wrecking their communities, but these are the same chavs who dropped out of school with no qualifications, have no manners, who are often illiterate and innumerate, who are rude to middle class people, are often dishonest and who think the world owes them a living. If I were a company director and had the choice between employing an attractive, hard working and bright Pole or an ugly British oik who can't spell, I know who I would employ.
Posted by Michael on March 29, 2008 3:09 PM

No to the parasites, if one needs a plumber at ones home for example, you would not move him and his family and all his dependants in permanently. Let alone let them criticise ones domestic arrangements and begin to move the furniture about. Insanity, where has common sense gone.
Posted by Rupert Mortimer on March 29, 2008 3:00 PM

Please tell all these negative effects to France which is going hellbent down the same path. The most vociferous supporters of the harmful immigration are the rabidly red teachers - who are, of course, featherbedded civil servants. They feel free to show illegals and crooked asylum seekers how to break the laws -going so far as to encourage them to squat in our churches.... The French family size is going down because they are having to pay heavily for unlimited aid to immigrants. What will our great grandchildren make of their heritage and culture being delapidated ? ? NO DOUBT THE RACE RELATIONS INDUSTRY WON'T LIKE THESE HOMETRUTHS...
Posted by barbaral on March 29, 2008 2:56 PM

Please,please read the following points,consider them and then ask yourself what YOU are going to do to resolve the problem of immigration.
1) Immigration is the biggest threat to the British way of life that we have ever faced.
2)Even if we were to stop immigration now, a combination of white flight and the respective birth rates of the immigrants and the indiginous population would mean that many or most of our major cities would have minority indiginous populations in the near future.
3)You will probably suffer because of these trends but your children and grandchildren will definitely suffer.
4)Some of the newcomers will integrate but there is no chance whatsoever of the muslims integrating with the indiginous people because of the respective life-styles being totally incompatible.
5)Only VERY STRONG action will resolve this problem.It will certainly not be addressed by this disgusting Labour Government.The question you should ask yourself is do you truly beleive the the Tories will take the necessary action.If the answer is no then dont vote for them in the hope you are wrong.The gamble would be far too great to take as the consequences of getting it wrong will be calamitous.
6)If we cannot get a Government to take the required action then a civil war is virtually a certainty as the British people cannot take very much more of this attack on our country's way of life.
You can carry on complaining about the situation but it will get you nowhere.I have always voted Conservative but I dont believe they would take strong enough action so I shall vote BNP.If you are prepared to visit their website and check them out you will discover they are very different to how they are portrayed by the media.Our forefathers fought and died to preserve our way of life .Surely you can at least vote to honour their memory and ensure they didnt die in vain.
Posted by Ex Conservative on March 29, 2008 2:54 PM

Even A lot less well off but a happier in itself nation would have been better! It has been going on too long with no regard for the people's views since the 50s, to be anything but deliberate. Whether a spoken conspiracy or not, a general assumption and imposition of a self interested group. Including the stultifying PC culture to ensure migrants were not upset at the way they were regarded. Presumably a cabal of politicians wanting quick fixes to long term problems so they selfishly get elected to the gravy train and expense accounts. With heavy business interests in the mix. Saved on training our own people or investing in automation, cheap ready made migrants. So we suffer a fractured frenetic unhappy nation so they get their expense accounts.
Migration is plain wrong in this age. End it, reverse it as best possible.
Posted by JamesStGeorge on March 29, 2008 2:46 PM

Having read through these comments, I notice that people have rightly assessed Labour's cynical reason for importing so many aliens as the need to increase its voting base following the loss of votes from its original working-class base. What no one seems to note is that Labour will not have the new, alien voting base it thinks it will because, as is shown in other European countries where Moslems are set to become 50% or more in some major cities, the Moslem intention is to set up specifically Moslem-based parties, elect all their own Moslem candidates and institute Sharia Law, first in cities and then, country-wide. While that may present some of you with a certain feeling of glee (or schadenfreude?) at Labour's eventual destruction, you will feel the effects long before these protected vermin of the government are turned out by the ballot box.
Posted by Just Saying on March 29, 2008 2:43 PM

Nothing personal against the immigrants... I'm sure a lot of them are very nice and well meaning people, but I don't want any more of them in my country. It is very deeply unsettling to feel like a stranger in one's own land, and to see centuries of history and the British character being airbrushed out of history by Labour's hideous sociological experiment. Cultural genocide doesn't just happen in Tibet.
Posted by Michael on March 29, 2008 2:27 PM

The UK is the dustbin of the world and it can only get worse. Thank you Labour. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your nether regions you useless bunch of morons.
Posted by Dek Crossingham on March 29, 2008 2:22 PM

Prior to the WWII the main groups of immigrants since the 16th century had been the Huguenots, the Jews and the Irish. There were also very small numbers of other foreigners e.g. Russian emigres, Italians and so on. The main characteristic of these waves of immigrants were that the people were either sufficiently similar to ourselves in terms of ethnicity and religion to be able to become fully integrated and almost indistinguishable from the native population within a generation or two or in the case of the Jews (who had a different religion) were willing to keep their religion in the private sphere and to adapt to British ways and to become loyal citizens. The numbers that came over a period of time were not sufficient to be too disruptive or to undermine our own culture. There was no welfare state then and so these groups had to fend for themselves. After the war some immigrants helped to plug skill and labour shortages such as the West Indians (transport and nursing), Indians (doctors) and again the Irish (construction and industry). Had we made an effort to meet our own future needs once these gaps had been plugged this would have been all right but we came to rely on ever more immigrants. This was partly due to shortcomings in our own education system and also because our welfare state allowed many lazy indigenous people to live on benefits rather than having to work hard. Some immigrant groups themselves proved less than desirable in that they also had high unemployment rates and high welfare dependency rates. The numbers are far too high now and are causing a clash with our own culture and way of life. One has to admit that there have been enormous benefits derived from certain immigrants but there are other groups that have been more trouble than they are worth. When one takes into account the fracturing of our society, the predicted population explosion, the social tensions caused by cultural differences and the huge strain on social housing and public services it is definitely time to call a halt to any futher immigration.
Posted by Mark Kenneth Owen on March 29, 2008 2:20 PM

This was madness on an island. Many immigrants come from areas of poorer health and tend to have larger families swamping the NHS, education and local services, though they do not contribute in the same way via income tax, many being in low-pay jobs and via council tax due to higher rates of occupancy within properties. This was about creating a new underclass which Labour perceive as its natural vote. The Labour Party cannot accept that a prosperous society with a broad-deep mid class is naturally Tory and keen to drag those still in deprivation out of it to join them.
Fact: keeping people in deprived circumstances is core to the Labour vote. Getting them out of it augments the Tory vote. The Tories have the most to benefit from lifting people out of poverty, not the Labour party - shameful but true.
Posted by simon coulter on March 29, 2008 2:11 PM

Whilst I have to admit that I have never voted for them, isn't it odd that the BNP have been saying all of this for decades and all it has got them is vilification from the mainstream media.
Posted by david webb on March 29, 2008 1:56 PM

We are a overcrowded small island,how much longer will it take before this government takes notice of what the majority of the population know immigration is not benificial.Also how does this immigration help our carbon footprint.
Posted by G KINNAIRD on March 29, 2008 1:39 PM

Immigration is good for any country if it can attract skilled and educated people. What happened with EU is a disaster, with all kinds pouring in, increasing crime, drugs, gun related crime etc. If it had been controlled like its been controlled for asia, letting mostly highly skilled with the highly skilled migrant programme, all this could have been avoided.
Posted by John Monder on March 29, 2008 1:34 PM

The only real proof as to take out all immigrants that have arrived since the 1950s then view what would have happened today, Al othermethods
would be pure conjecture often base on uncertain data.
Posted by Sid Roberts on March 29, 2008 1:34 PM

No it has not - and in particular shutting down connections with the Commonwealth nations has done us more harm than good.
Posted by JJWS on March 29, 2008 1:31 PM

Re. Immigration effects. EU promises 20% reduction in carbon emissions by 2020. The UK population has increased by 8 per cent since 1971. The average growth per year since mid-2001 has been 0.5 per cent. Lets assume carbon footprint increase is in direct proportion to population increase. Then our growth in carbon output by 2020 due to poulation increase alone will be 14%. One can draw various conclusions from these data.
Posted by PJD on March 29, 2008 1:31 PM

and then of course there is the extremely negative quality of life associated with living in a grotesquely overcrowded third world country and the draconian laws preventing us saying exactly what we think about it. Skill shortages are caused by poor educational and training opportunities and market failure, not by people shortages.
Posted by beowolf on March 29, 2008 1:26 PM

Perhaps if the government had done more to restrict the massive numbers of immigrants, our country's financial situation might not be so dire. Maternity services were cut as the birth rate was reducing, then the massive increase in immigrants raised the birth rate way above that which the services could cope with. The increase in crime, health needs and education has put an enormous burden on each and every council, but the government do not take any responsibility for this, rhetoric does not help these councils balance the books.
Posted by Alison Butlin on March 29, 2008 12:59 PM

So - we have been treated to a great con of massive proportions and now it is too late to turn the clock back. What future is there for our country? Natives are voting with their feet!
Posted by Goodbye Blighty on March 29, 2008 12:45 PM

As Benjamin Disraeli said, some time in the 19th century, “There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.” And, statistics can be and regularly are massaged, mostly by politicians and perhaps even academics, to prove a political point or a theory and which appears, at least on the surface, to support a particular policy or plan. Problem with statistics is that they can be very selective, taken among a group of like-minded people or even the same ethnicity, taken from within the boundaries of a profession of the sample taken is quite small when compared, for example, to the size of the population in a town, city, county or country. Watever, there is always more than one side to statistics and whilst it may be feasible to prove that black is black or white is white there are so many shades of grey in between that allows for different levels of interpretation. Whilst the government appears to have used statistics to state that immigrants helped to produce some 15% of economic growth, running at 2.7% annually over the last 5 or 10 years, what they did not do, in their deliberations, was take into account the cost of immigrants in terms of providing additional medical and health facilities within the NHS and increasing the strain on those services in the process, providing additional social housing to meet the increasing size of the population, provide primary and secondary education facilities to meet the demands of people with 50 or 60 different ‘mother-tongues’, the increasing costs of hiring translators in all public areas, and other public services such as public transport, the cost of increased crime and policing, child allowances, child tax credits and even unemployment benefits to the influx of the 5 million who have come here over the last decade. When these additional costs are taken into consideration a possible increase in economic growth of 15% of 2.7% over 5 years is, possibly, insignificant. What important fact, which previous government information makes no reference to but which others have commented on, is that many of the lower-paid and lower-skilled jobs have been taken by economic migrants from Eastern Europe and from the Indian sub-continent and this has, in some way, acted as a disincentive to the indigenous population to take on employment and has also allowed industry and commerce to reduce their training programmes to keep employees up-to-date and up-to-speed on systems and equipment.
One result of the rapid four-fold increase, from approximately 47,000 immigrants per annum in 1997 and for decades before, to in excess of 190,000 immigrants per annum over the last decade, is that there are now, approximately 10.08 million people in UK of working age between 16 and 65, who are classed as being ‘economically inactive’. The social services bill for those on long-term incapacity benefit, some 2.6 million people, is in the order of £15 billion a year; some 800,000 are in receipt of unemployment benefit; it is reported there are 20,000 families in Britain who receive £30,000 or more per annum in social security and benefit payments; and, foreigners in Britain are paid child allowances and child tax credits and increasing amounts are being remitted back to their country of origin, as has been happening with migrants from the Indian sub-continent for many decades, and is not spent here.
It is possible that, instead of providing economic benefits, immigration is an increasing cost to the British tax-payer. No doubt the figures can be shuffled around to prove otherwise, but, somehow I doubt it.
Posted by Kenneth Armitage on March 29, 2008 12:06 PM

Just goes to confirm how ''political correctness'', whatever the party colour of the Government in power, always ends up in disaster. Hope that at least now they get some sense into their thick-skulled immigration policies.
Posted by ILLUMINE on March 29, 2008 11:59 AM

I suggets that the opening of our borders never ahd anything to do with supposed economic benefits, but was rather an attempt to make our country less British, less distinct from others in the EU, less Anglo-Saxon Protestant Conservative, and more continental Roman Catholic Socialist. I suggest that it was also an attempt to import Labour voters. Conservatives have been afraid to speak out for fear of losing immigrant votes, and Labour know it.
Posted by Blunt Instrument on March 29, 2008 11:52 AM

It comes as no surprise that "immigration has brought zero economic benefits". The UK has let in people regardless of their skills or their ability to support themselves. Workers should be allowed into the UK if we "UK plc" need their skills. We should not allow dependent relatives to come here, because it makes no economic sense. If a person comes here to work and then brings say 'a spouse and three children' unless they are in a high income bracket, how is their contribution i.e. tax and N.I.going to pay for the healthcare and education alone for that family?
The Welfare State encourages our young not to seek work, so we pay them to sit at home and then we bring in immigrants to do the work!
How was that ever going to improve the economy?!!
Apart from this every day we hear of organised crime being carried out by non indigenous gangs. We have our own criminal fraternity we don't need to import more, it is costing the police a fortune in terms of time and money. The other huge cost is in translation. Everything is now printed in umpteen languages and people have interpreters for anything they want, shouldn't they learn our language if they want to work here. I couldn't get a job in France if I didn't speak French! tere are many more aspects where it makes no sense to me to have uncontrolled mass immigration, as a nation we are very tolerant of other people but immigration is totally out of hand and the only solution I can see to stop it getting far worse is to use the economic route and stop paying welfare to our own people who are capable of working and immigrants who should contribute or return home. Posted by Gillian Bailey on March 29, 2008 11:51 AM

Migration, since the 'fifties, has been an unmitigated disaster for the UK. Can anyone please tell me where a multicultural society has been a success in the world outside? psted by jonathan montmorency on March 29, 2008 11:47 AM

If we had a skilled, well-educated population, then I might be able to understand the need for regulated, visa-controlled immigration to compensate for the lack of people available to fill unskilled vacancies. However, this is simply not the case in this country.
To understand the situation, one has to look at how large-scale manufacturing has virtually been wiped out in this country and replaced by cheap imports. Hence, the apprenticeships opportunities for the people who once were the backbone of industry has disappeared. Moreover, the people who would normally make up that labour force now face competition from over-qualified immigrants for even the most menial of tasks. I also reserve equal condemnation for our miserable educational system, where quality has been sacrificed for quantity. This is particularly true of the way the present inept Government is apparently happy to churn out people from third-rate universities with third-rate degrees, already up to their necks in debt before they have even enter the workplace. The situation is further compounded because degree status gives young, naive, ill-equipped people unrealistically high expectations right from the outset of their careers, when they should be spending time gaining experience on the bottom rung of the promotion ladder.
Another aspect concerns the widespread practice of allowing skilled immigrants, especially from the medical profession, to work in our country. This not only denies workplace opportunities to our own medical staff, but robs overseas countries of much-needed expertise.
We have also created a problem with welfare dependency, where too many people are allowed, often for the flimsiest of excuses, to dump responsibility for their upkeep on the taxpayer. Nobody, for example, without a serious medical disability, should be allowed to go straight from school onto State benefits. What kind of example does that set for life?
So, we end up with the worst of all worlds. A rapidly rising feckless, welfare-dependent section of society that will not get of their lazy backsides and look for a job; a dwindling manufacturing base wrecked by a flood of cheap imports and high wage costs; a sub-standard educated workforce and unwarranted competition from a huge, uncontrolled influx of immigrants for both skilled and unskilled vacancies.
Posted by ThankYou&Goodnight on March 29, 2008 11:45 AM

Immigration has in fact retarded Britain in Maintaining the British Culture. Hundreds of Britons have emigrated to New Zealand (including my two Children) because New Zealand in the last Bastion of British Culture based upon Christian Values. New Labour's obsession with creating a 'Multicultural' society is now growing so rapidly that within a few years the indigenous Briton will be in a Minority. Housing has suffered along with employment and education.
Posted by George Partington on March 29, 2008 11:38 AM

Hasn't the vast majority of the indiginous population been saying this for ten years? Labour does it again.Are they all sleepers placed by the old USSR to undermine our society? They've done a better job than the KGB.
Posted by Albert Hall on March 29, 2008 11:36 AM

Official confirmation of what the majority have suspected for many years and which only a few (eg Sir Andrew Green and MigrationWatch) have had the courage to articulate. Now perhaps the Tories will have the guts to 'bottle up' to this issue. Don't expect any change from Labour:they encouraged immigration because they saw an electoral advantage. Also, the EuroStalinists calculated that, with an increasing number of people who have no special affinity with the culture and traditions of this country, it would be easier to drag us into the EUSSR superstate.
With the economic case for immigration exposed, the government will probably retreat to the 'human rights / human dignity' posture so expect a torrent of hand wringing pseudo-philanthropy from the Left and their their allies such as the Church of England. Alternatively they might go for the 'can't do anything about it' pose. This is already being trailed in the form of stories about mass-migration due to climate change.
(Finally, I don't think even this House of Lords report gives the full story because it doesn't appear to consider how much money immigrants send out of the UK to their home countries)
Posted by Michael Drummond on March 29, 2008 11:32 AM

If they wrong and the imigrnts helped the economy stay where it is today we shall see in the next few years but let's face it the UK has an old population and they are too proud to do dirty work that imigrants do.
Posted by Mike on March 29, 2008 11:15 AM

Some immigration is good, if the people are highly-skilled and will assimilate quickly. The levels of immigration - and the people arriving here - have not met these criteria.
The immigration we have seen for the past 10 years under NuLabour has not been good for the country. It has been designed to give the appearance of a booming economy with no consideration to the strain which would be placed on infrastructure or public services, and no apparant thought to the long-term consequences (other than bringing in a block of probably Labour voters, of course).
Posted by Donna Walker on March 29, 2008 10:52 AM

It all seems like some big con to deceive the nation.
Brown and Blair have misled us all for soooo long. Whilst migration isnt a bad thing, uncontrollable and unmanaged system as we see is unsustainable. There needs to be more controls on the borders, ability to get British passports must be made harder, sham marriages as they are known happen in london daily when gay men 'marry' non english women then divorce the following week, its a joke.
time the whole thing was shut down, the door closed and some order brought back to the country, otherwise there will be nothing left,,
Posted by gordon on March 29, 2008 10:49 AM

It certainly has had no economic benefit for those British workers who struggle to find work against a backdrop of some blatant discrimination from employers in favour of immigrant cheap labour. Something that this government hasn't acknowledged at all. It isn't just low paid jobs that are threatened either. The better paid jobs are being given to immigrants who can clearly struggle with the work,( I'm sure we all have an example of that). As for, "However, ministers say that without large-scale immigration there would have been slower economic growth", it doesn't seem to have done the country much good. Wages have struggled furiously in the past few years against some challenging rises in the cost of living. The worst thing about all of this is the complete lack of control and disinterest that this profligate government has shown. They don't deserve to win another election on this issue alone.
Posted by judy on March 29, 2008 10:46 AM

It's 10.38 and no comments so far. No doubt the floodgates will open soon. But to answer the question..... NO!
Posted by Jim, in the West Country on March 29, 2008 10:38 AM

No, I think it has been incorrectly handled: fewer and more integration via education rather than multiculturalism would have made me feel less of a foreigner in my own country at times.
Posted by Andy Lewis on March 29, 2008 10:33 AM

No, the net benefit of temporary NHS staff is evident but the hoards of immigrant young men who have no work prospects and benefit from the free care at the point of need has produced an injustice felt my the majority.
Posted by jane on March 29, 2008 10:22 AM

As someone who was made redundant from a highly skilled IT job due to
cheaper people from the Ukraine. I believe only some businesses profit from immigration not the country or people as a whole.
Posted by Michael Morris on March 29, 2008 10:20 AM

Migration has brought 'zero' economic benefit but lots of Labour voters.
Posted by Cui Bono on March 29, 2008 10:18 AM

Record immigration, or unrecorded immigration?
Let's be candid, the Government has no idea of how many invaders we have. They cannot have the least idea how to evaluate the claimed benefits.
We have insufficient housing, schools have twice the number of pupils for teachers. You cannot get to see a doctor or dentist. We have a huge number of unemployed. Why do we need any immigration untill all of these problems are resolved?
When we can adequately cater for those already here, we can then think about inviting more. That will be some time after the population gets back to a reasonable 55 million or so, around the turn of the next century.
Posted by Rasta Bob on March 29, 2008 10:14 AM

Here in the USA, the latino invasion has created a net economic loss. Of course, the corporations that hires them have the benefit of lower wages to pay. The costs of the invaders is externalized from the business that hires them. The extra cost of housing, education, medicine and law enforcement is paid for by the general public. The business that hires them has a profit, but the nation as a whole has a deficit.
Posted by Sunny Meadow on March 29, 2008 10:13 AM

Britain has a long-standing and liberal history of immigration that has enriched our nation. However, the uncontrolled influx over the last ten years has been economically and socially detrimental and in part explains why record numbers of young and able indigenous Brits are emigrating.
Posted by Alan Morgan on March 29, 2008 10:09 AM

I've been saying this for years. I've told the Tories but as usual they cock a deaf 'un. We need to turn the clock back to the 1950's.
Posted by John on March 29, 2008 10:03 AM

Does this surprise anybody ???
Posted by Bob Landy on March 29, 2008 9:52 AM

I live in France now and everyone coming from the UK complains bitterly about the quality of life there.Much of this discontent comes from ridiculous rates of immigration. Why is the present government so intent on immigration? And why are the Conservatives keeping quiet about it when they should be excoriating Labour- the most disastrous government ever.
Posted by John Pelton on March 29, 2008 9:50 AM

No there's a surprise, all what we were told by the Government and the lefty media and political groups has turned out to be a crock of s**t. Time to expell the Labour from power!
Posted by Alex on March 29, 2008 9:43 AM

Most migrants are here for their own benefit and have little interest in the progress of the host country. Should better opportunities appear elsewhere or economic problems develop, most will move on. That's not unexpected as I'm sure it's a common feeling amongst all expat workers wherever they may be. In the longer term, I think we'll see recent immigration levels will not have been a positive development for this country. The most skilled will have left and we'll find the country struggling to fund those unable or unwilling to provide for themselves.
Previous research by Migration Watch already illustrated that each migrant actually costs more per capita than is actually contributed so it's hardly likely to improve!
Posted by Zak H. Santos on March 29, 2008 9:43 AM

The Lord report goes against the findings of countless other reports in the UK and other countries that find significant benefits accruing to host countries. It also seems to go against common sense a bit--London would fall over if there were not sizeable numbers of immigrants, and UK agriculture would suffer mightily. Immigrants eat, pay rent, pay VAT and other taxes--they are young, and often return to their home countries when they become net 'consumers' of government services. This has been pointed out in numerous studies, all of whom reach the conclusion that immigration is overall a net gain to the host society. It is also a gain to the societies that contribute immigrants--they send more money home than ever reaches it by foreign aid. And obviously, it is a benefit to the immigrant. Just ask the millions of UK citizens who have emigrated to other climes.
Posted by Tom Fuller on March 29, 2008 9:40 AM

Immigration into Britain on the scale of the last 10 years has given rise to all the problems of cultural unrest we are now experiencing.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to recognise Britain as a 'Nation' more of a mixture of every nation, and thus having no Sovereign direction. Most other Western Nations are similarly affected, but this may be part of a subtle plan by many of our leaders to have the World run by a 'one world Government'.
Read about the for Bilderburgers to see the reality of this, with the ever growing power and boundaries of the EU being a step along the way.
Posted by Frederick Higgins on March 29, 2008 9:39 AM

Mass uncontrolled immigration has been the biggest disaster to hit Britain for 1,000 years. It has permanently undermined British and English culture and unity. On current trends we will end up a minority in our own country. Just have a drive round large parts of London. The British people never asked for this, or wanted it, or needed it. And now the last pathetic piece of support, the palty economic gains of immigration, have been demolished.
Posted by Charles on March 29, 2008 9:36 AM

Not to mention the disasterous effect it has had on the social climate of Britain
Posted by Mr Dodd on March 29, 2008 9:27 AM

It's about time that we establish as fact what has been obvious here in London for years. Mass immigration is destroying English culture, particularly ordinary white working class culture (if this even exists in London now).
I mention London as I've lived here for 25 years having come up from the country to university. In the last 10 years the city I knew and loved and felt a part of has been whittled away. I don't dislike these new-comers individually, they are just trying to make the best life for themselves, but they are destroying something precious and unique that they do not understand or care about (why should they? most of us don’t). No society can sustain this degree of open door policy, particularly as all we are really doing is introducing ever cheaper labour which consigns our own working class – white & 2nd,3rd etc generation immigrants - to a life of benefits and "underclass" status. Cultural variety is fine so long as ones own identity and purpose remain. Neither have been. Of course the really tricky bit is going to be reversing this excess and doing something about those who cannot or will not assimilate... that's going to require stomach of the sort that none of our politicians seem to possess.
Posted by Nick, London on March 29, 2008 9:27 AM

Immigration has done nothing but harm to this country. It is impossible to state here just how much people are opposed to immigration. I have yet to hear even one member of the indigenous popultion speak well of our immigration policy or say how good it is to have millions of Asians, Eastern Europeans, Africans, Arabs etc. etc. crowded into our already full-up little island. Free speech has suffered as people fear imprisonment merely for expressing long held and sincere beliefs about race and integration. The credibility of the government has suffered, not just because of their failed policy, but because they have introduced laws to stop us speaking our minds. Trust in the police has diminished too as they enforce laws that would see imprisonment for those who speak freely and also because the police refuse to act in cases where they may be accused - unjustly - of racial prejudice. Witness the "grooming" cases in Blackburn, Lancashire where even the usually Asian-arse-kissing MP Jack Straw admits Asian men are targeting young white girls for sex and luring them into prostitution. The police refuse to acknowledge this, saying it is just "men". This does their credibility no good at all when everyone knows what the real problem is.
Housing is another issue. Immigrants - usually Asians - have bought up huge tracts of terraced housing in inner city areas, forever closing this section of the housing market to our children. White kids don't want to live in Asian areas anymore than Asian -muslim - immigrants want to live in traditional white areas.
The costs to the taxpayer increase every year due to healthcare, education, translators, crime, immigration services. Many new immigrants from the east of Europe are young men, here for a few years to earn money to send back home. They cause trouble - statistics show that many are convicted criminals, booted out by their own countries - and the monies earned do not stay in the UK but are exported.
Our communities have fractured due to the influx of immigrants. My wife and I do not wish to live any longer in the town in which we have lived for over 50 yrs. This is due to the way the town has changed because we have now a population that is around 40% Asian. They do want us. We do not want them. The time has come to halt all immigration. Withdraw from the EC if that is what it takes. Pevent anyone from coming here. Leave the Commonwealth if we have to. Start forcible repatriation. Let's get back to the society we had 30 yrs ago. I'm voting BNP after being a life-long Labour voter as only the BNP seem to understand what the people of this country really want.
Posted by paul atherton on March 29, 2008 9:26 AM

Immigration has been the final nail in the coffin in what was once a great country. The multicultural nightmare grows worse every day as more third world hordes arrive and quality indigenous British leave.
Vote BNP!
Posted by Phil on March 29, 2008 9:20 AM

One is bombarded with figures so maybe some-one can explain which figures I should believe. The Prime Minister as I understand it, boasted in his scottish speach that 300,000 new jobs had been created.(? over what period) Elsewhere one is informed that from Poland alone 500,000 immigrants have arrived. So, were 200,000 of the indigenent
population dispossess-ed of their jobs in order to accomodate the new arrivals?
Posted by B Phillips on March 29, 2008 9:16 AM

well thats pretty obvious to anyone with a basic grasp of economics and common sense, and not blinded by an ideological hatred.
Posted by dave in brixton on March 29, 2008 9:15 AM

I would expect that migation has taken a lot away from what Britain used to be and caused a lot of problems.
Posted by Helen on March 29, 2008 9:13 AM

We in Britain have been constantly brainwashed with the delusion that immigration was essential for economic growth and all the so-called cultural benefits resulting from a mass inflow, it’s a breath of fresh air of sorts that an independent government committee have exposed just one of the lies about the so-called benefits of immigration that’s been used as a club to batter the indigenous population by those well know vested interests. The truth, I’m afraid, have come far too late. All any inquiry in this area needed to do decades ago to nail those lies, was to look at the situation in Japan. Like us, an offshore island, but without our benefits of coal, gas, oil energy assets. But unlike us, has always had a strict ban on any immigration. The result that Japan is one of the most homogeneous countries on earth. Ethnic Japanese make up 98.5 percent of the population, followed by Koreans and Chinese at 0.5 and 0.4 percent. The largest non-Japanese populations are, therefore, from closely related races and are visually indistinguishable from the majority. Wherever you go in Japan, you are likely to see Japanese and only Japanese. And far from meaning that such homogeneity means dull uniformity Japan has as much variety—cultural, aesthetic, culinary—as anyone could want. Whether it is clothing styles, amateur orchestras, motorcycle clubs, art exhibits, restaurants or museums, visitors are struck by the rich variety of Japanese life. And as for Japan’s immigration policy resulting in economic decline, Japan is still the world’s second biggest economy with a huge trade surplus as opposed to out massive trade and borrowing deficit. The result is, that the Japanese have a much better chance than we do of surviving into the next century as a coherent, prosperous nation with a culture and civilization it can unmistakably call its own.
Posted by Sean Dunne on March 29, 2008 9:11 AM

Immigration apart, the welfare state has been a disaster for Britain.
Posted by gerry on March 29, 2008 8:56 AM

A Country that cannot control its own Borders is no longer a free, independent, sovereignty Country. Whether Migration is good or bad for this Country makes no difference what ever the outcome. there is nothing this Country can do to alter the situation. It therefore is pointless in holding a meeting. a waste of time and a waste of taxpayers money.
Posted by Anne Palmer on March 29, 2008 8:53 AM

There are 6 million people claiming benefits in the UK and not working. Some of these are really sick, most are not. It is madness to keep paying benefits whilst importing millions of people into an already over crowded UK. The UK needs a recession to slow down the madness that has gripped the place for the past 10 years. Hopefully many of the recent arrivals will go elsewhere or return to their countries of origin. Then there will be fewer cars on the roads and no 'need' for the 3 million houses Gordo wants to build and destroy more of the UK's countryside
Posted by H Horse on March 29, 2008 8:48 AM

The current immigration "policy" is an uncontrolled and unprecedented social experiment carried out by our elites without the consent of the people - it has never been voted on, and most of us don't want it.
The narrow positive criteria of "diversity" and "economic benefit" are now seen to be mirages, while the negative effects of the rise of crime, white slavery, drug gangs, human trafficking, insular ghettoes, Islamic fundamentalism, the growth of the underclass and social fragmentation are swept under the carpet. It is time for a moratorium while we take stock of where and who we are.
Posted by Richard Dell on March 29, 2008 8:48 AM

You're going to have to deport these scroungers, freeloaders, mooochers, terrorists and their enablers by force and that means people are going to die. This is what comes of siding with politically correct lies, denigration of your own race, religion and social values and the politically determined destruction of your nation. No group of people who, for generation after generation, having lived as parasites off the 'host' (native, true British people) and who have never worked a day in their lives for their myriad of benefits, and have no intention of starting to do so, will go quietly. (You know I'm not talking about East Europeans, don't you?) If you don't deport them, they will destroy you.
Posted by John Smith on March 29, 2008 8:46 AM

As Benjamin Disraeli said, some time in the 19th century, “There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.” And, statistics can be and regularly are massaged, mostly by politicians and perhaps even academics, to prove a political point or a theory and which appears, at least on the surface, to support a particular policy or plan. Problem with statistics is that they can be very selective, taken among a group of like-minded people or even the same ethnicity, taken from within the boundaries of a profession of the sample taken is quite small when compared, for example, to the size of the population in a town, city, county or country. Whatever, there is always more than one side to statistics and whilst it may be feasible to prove that black is black or white is white there are so many shades of grey in between that allows for different levels of interpretation. Whilst the government appears to have used statistics to state that immigrants helped to produce some 15% of economic growth, running at 2.7% annually over the last 5 or 10 years, what they did not do, in their deliberations, was take into account the cost of immigrants in terms of providing additional medical and health facilities within the NHS and increasing the strain on those services in the process, providing additional social housing to meet the increasing size of the population, provide primary and secondary education facilities to meet the demands of people with 50 or 60 different ‘mother-tongues’, the increasing costs of hiring translators in all public areas, and other public services such as public transport, the cost of increased crime and policing, child allowances, child tax credits and even unemployment benefits to the influx of the 5 million who have come here over the last decade. When these additional costs are taken into consideration a possible increase in economic growth of 15% of 2.7% over 5 years is, possibly, insignificant. What important fact, which previous government information makes no reference to but which others have commented on, is that many of the lower-paid and lower-skilled jobs have been taken by economic migrants from Eastern Europe and from the Indian sub-continent and this has, in some way, acted as a disincentive to the indigenous population to take on employment and has also allowed industry and commerce to reduce their training programmes to keep employees up-to-date and up-to-speed on systems and equipment.
One result of the rapid four-fold increase, from approximately 47,000 immigrants per annum in 1997 and for decades before, to in excess of 190,000 immigrants per annum over the last decade, is that there are now, approximately 10.08 million people in UK of working age between 16 and 65, who are classed as being ‘economically inactive’. The social services bill for those on long-term incapacity benefit, some 2.6 million people, is in the order of £15 billion a year; some 800,000 are in receipt of unemployment benefit; it is reported there are 20,000 families in Britain who receive £30,000 or more per annum in social security and benefit payments; and, foreigners in Britain are paid child allowances and child tax credits and increasing amounts are being remitted back to their country of origin, as has been happening with migrants from the Indian sub-continent for many decades, and is not spent here. It is possible that, instead of providing economic benefits, immigration is an increasing cost to the British tax-payer. No doubt the figures can be shuffled around to prove otherwise, but, somehow I doubt it.
Posted by Kenneth Armitage on March 29, 2008 8:44 AM

Of course not its a joke.
Posted by john on March 29, 2008 8:39 AM

New Labour have known all along that the unprecedented levels of Immigration they have encouraged has minimal economic benefits.

The reason for the open-door policy is that during the 80's many white working class people turned to the Tories and Labour lost its traditional base of support. New voters had to be found and nurtured in
order for L