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Who Should Not Be Saved in a Pandemic

 
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PostWysłany: Wto 12:24, 06 Maj 2008    Temat postu: Who Should Not Be Saved in a Pandemic

Who Should Not Be Saved in a Pandemic?
By LINDSEY TANNER,AP
Posted: 2008-05-05 13:28:17
Filed Under: Health News
CHICAGO (May 5) - Doctors know some patients needing lifesaving care won't get it in a flu pandemic or other disaster. The gut-wrenching dilemma will be deciding who to let die.

Now, an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.
The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.

The proposed guidelines are designed to be a blueprint for hospitals "so that everybody will be thinking in the same way" when pandemic flu or another widespread health care disaster hits, said Dr. Asha Devereaux. She is a critical care specialist in San Diego and lead writer of the task force report.

The idea is to try to make sure that scarce resources - including ventilators, medicine and doctors and nurses - are used in a uniform, objective way, task force members said.

Their recommendations appear in a report appearing Monday in the May edition of Chest, the medical journal of the American College of Chest Physicians.

"If a mass casualty critical care event were to occur tomorrow, many people with clinical conditions that are survivable under usual health care system conditions may have to forgo life-sustaining interventions owing to deficiencies in supply or staffing," the report states.

To prepare, hospitals should designate a triage team with the Godlike task of deciding who will and who won't get lifesaving care, the task force wrote. Those out of luck are the people at high risk of death and a slim chance of long-term survival. But the recommendations get much more specific, and include:

-- People older than 85.

-- Those with severe trauma, which could include critical injuries from car crashes and shootings.

-- Severely burned patients older than 60.

-- Those with severe mental impairment, which could include advanced Alzheimer's disease.

-- Those with a severe chronic disease, such as advanced heart failure, lung disease or poorly controlled diabetes.

Dr. Kevin Yeskey, director of the preparedness and emergency operations office at the Department of Health and Human Services, was on the task force. He said the report would be among many the agency reviews as part of preparedness efforts.

Public health law expert Lawrence Gostin of Georgetown University called the report an important initiative but also "a political minefield and a legal minefield."

The recommendations would probably violate federal laws against age discrimination and disability discrimination, said Gostin, who was not on the task force.

If followed to a tee, such rules could exclude care for the poorest, most disadvantaged citizens who suffer disproportionately from chronic disease and disability, he said. While health care rationing will be necessary in a mass disaster, "there are some real ethical concerns here."

James Bentley, a senior vice president at American Hospital Association, said the report will give guidance to hospitals in shaping their own preparedness plans even if they don't follow all the suggestions.

He said the proposals resemble a battlefield approach in which limited health care resources are reserved for those most likely to survive.

Bentley said it's not the first time this type of approach has been recommended for a catastrophic pandemic, but that "this is the most detailed one I have seen from a professional group."

While the notion of rationing health care is unpleasant, the report could help the public understand that it will be necessary, Bentley said.

Devereaux said compiling the list "was emotionally difficult for everyone."
That's partly because members believe it's just a matter of time before such a health care disaster hits, she said.
"You never know," Devereaux said. "SARS took a lot of folks by surprise. We didn't even know it existed."

=============================

jerrym930 04:43:48 AM May 06 2008
just about damn near any one from texas is top of my list.
you asses could have stopped bush in your piece of crap state. IF he was never "youalls" gov then shoot fire boy he would have given up, but no "youall" voted for him gave him hope , hope so thst he ran for the oval office. gotdamnit it is "youalls" fault the hell with "youall"

=====
Being from Texas, I could say that all the Bush haters should top the list, but then I would be lowering myself to your level. The first ones on my list are illegals, followed anyone in prison, or jail. The next group would be all elected officials, lawyers, insurance company CEOs, and drug company CEOs. Maybe the drug company CEOs should be third to give them motivation to make enough medicine for everyone.
BATMANCALERO 04:36:35 AM May 06 2008

And who gets to decide on who lives and who dies?! SCIENTISTS?! SOME WORLD LEADERS?! HOLLYWOOD?! NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DECIDE THE FATE OF FIVE BILLION PEOPLE!!!
kellnerc7 03:33:13 AM May 06 2008

The criteria to select who lives should be as follows: Starting with the youngest and healthiest, one male and one female, one male and one female, and so on and so on. Most elderly people will tell you, whether they are healthy or not, that they would prefer that the scarce resources and precious time be used on the young and healthy.
thaykat 01:00:32 AM May 06 2008

This is a tough situation for all. Speaking for myself. I'm mature, I've had a life. My children and grandchildren are much younger and stronger than I. If resources were limited and someone had to be denied treatment then of course I would want to be the one who was denied. I really wouldn't enjoy living if I knew my children or grandchildren died because I took resources that could have been used to save their lives.
leebob182 12:30:19 AM May 06 2008

Add to the list NOT to be treated......Obama and his supporters.......all criminals.......those on welfare. Oh, and lawyers too.FOXINN 12:09:17 AM May 06 2008

All that with more spent per capita on healthcare than any other country. It's called triage people, and our soldiers in the field are well trained to practice it when necessary. Just count your blessings--most of the world will have to deny care to a much broader group of their population in the event of pandemic. Practice prevention and hopefully you won't be faced with not getting needed care.
rbuck26 12:08:07 AM May 06 2008

A "MUST ADD" for this list: Elected Officials at all levels.
On a more serious side, this is absolute B.S. Hopefully, anyone who will eventually have to vote on this or rule wether or not it's Constitutional will reject this concept out of hand. My future daughter is autistic, epileptic and has TS. I have a 30-30 Winchester - 'nuff said . . .
Antitexan666 12:07:01 AM May 06 2008

just about damn near any one from texas is top of my list. you asses could have stopped bush in your piece of crap state. IF he was never "youalls" gov then shoot fire boy he would have given up, but no "youall" voted for him gave him hope , hope so thst he ran for the oval office. gotdamnit it is "youalls" fault the hell with "youall"
paulleone 12:02:42 AM May 06 2008

Those who survive , young and old alike, will have the bucks to do so!!! This IS the GOOD OL' USA where all things are measured by dollars.
lkjohnson53 11:55:16 PM May 05 2008

Who are you people, tell me God above I didn't read what I just read.

11 - 20 of 2005Prev | Next2005 commentsRachel7569833 11:50:53 PM May 05 2008

I would have to agree with this article, Darwins theory, only the strongest survive, and the people on the list, clearly not the strongest, dont get me wrong, i believe everybody deserves a fighting chance, but its like triage during a mass casulty incident (ex a large car accident) DO as much as you can with very little time FOR EVERYBODY. The younger children should get a chance to flourish, the elderly already have A-weakened immune systems and B- 9 times outta 10, WAYYY more medical problems than the "pandemic flu" or whatever you want to say..
FJ401978LC 11:28:15 PM May 05 2008

A flood is coming. Rescue workers arive by truck at a mans house to evacuate him and he refuses. He says god will save him. The flood waters start to rise and now rescue workers arive at the mans house with a boat and he refuses, says god will save him. Finally the man is on the roof of his house and rescue workers arrive by helicopter and he once again refuses saying god will save him. finally the man drowns and arrives at the gates of heaven. he asks god why didn't you save me. And god tells him.... I tried to save you 3 times...I sent you a truck then a boat, then a helicopter! Religious nuts like this man should be on that list of people not to saveheddensparty81 11:16:42 PM May 05 2008

I have no faith in the CDC. They would sell us all down the river to advance their "RESEARCH". Trust me, I have had unfortunate contact with those morons
dsand74693 11:15:22 PM May 05 2008

I thought we had become more civilized then this . It will be a very sad day for all of us as human beings if this comes to pass .
The bottom line will be the rich and well off will survive and many of us other people who work hard to make a living and try to enjoy our life and families will not . If we HAD to have a list ......................................
My list would contain :
liars , cheats , thieves ,criminals , politicians , rude obnoxious people , racists , rapist , murders , child molesters . child abusers . dope addicts and alcoholics, embezziliers . people who physically abuse one another . People along these lines .
at least that would make more sense .
Those are some great choices, that i can't argue with but then again shouldn't god sort them out and make the decision. I say nothing for anyone. The planet would be appreciative..
dsand74693 11:09:53 PM May 05 2008

amen, a true solution.. no vacines for anyone, government and doctors need to quit playing god and let god decide..
mystic3695 11:09:24 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Isn't this common sense? Do our health care professionals really need an outline to determine whom to treat and whom to not? I think once the realization is there that resources are limited, the choices would be obvious. This is not a scenario anyone wants to see, but we can all imagine it happening. That is not to say it will though.
Terri2580 11:07:08 PM May 05 2008

Well i think in a situation like that ...........I would call on GOD to save me bc he is a true healer and he works miracles in many ways .....
dsand74693 11:07:01 PM May 05 2008

Read orgin of Species..
we are evolving. Eventually we will all be bald with 14 fingers and toes. Our heads will grow to twice the normal size and we will all chant Obama, Obama, Obama. Wright said it ., it must be true..
LPStarChaser 11:05:10 PM May 05 2008

kljndds;
And you would save only those who can afford to be saved? A 95 y/o diabetic asthmatic smoker with the bucks would trump a 25 y/o in somewhat reasonable health who works hard for a living for scraps of a dollar? The population is going to return to the ashes whence it came anyway, so allow nature to take its course on those who can still sustain themselves and the reast of the population.

all those running for public office, over paid medical doctors, go first
MontanaLonewolf 11:03:25 PM May 05 2008

sydnlrx 10:58:25 PM May 05 2008
Shoot a lot of people have purposely blown themselves up for a few virgins..
==
Must be the antichrist of the Clooney mantra-
"I'll take eight pro's over 80 virgins, any day of the week".......
*************************************************************
There's a ventrilquist, Jeff Dunham (who is really incredible, BTW) who has a character, Walter, that talks about that. He says "Why 72 virgins? Why not 72 slutty broads who know what they're doing?"
He also points out that nowhere does it say these virgins are all female....
MontanaLonewolf 11:02:00 PM May 05 2008
Pray. Period.
LPStarChaser 10:59:48 PM May 05 2008

There has to be a base for triage and care. It may be hard, but there will be a need to rebuild society. I may not agree with teh concept or considering it, but it needs to be thought out. Just make certain that money buys no favors, but is used to help the most people that can be helped.

Webwarp1; I worked as a CNA for a while and I know that there are too many resources used by those whose families do harm by not accepting the will of the Eternal G*D. There MUST be a triage procedure, no matter how little I agree with it.
sydnlrx 10:58:25 PM May 05 2008

The WHO is part a global communism, and they are looking for ways to diminish the population by 2-3 billion. Don't believe a thing the WHO says.
dsand74693 10:56:47 PM May 05 2008

First come first serve-- anybody with $Five dollars, Of course government should keep their nose out of it.. No government subsidies should be paid for anyone. Let it be..
dsand74693 10:55:42 PM May 05 2008

the problem with the world now is all these bleeding hearts both, liberal and conservative want to rescue the world. ask yourself what would Darwin Do..

Think of it we could solve global warming, the energy crisis, All the endangered species that are threatened by unchecked population growth. Unemployment, the trade deficit. social security. The list goes on and on.. Of course I could be one of the victims but that's the price you pay for saving the world... Shoot a lot of people have purposely blown themselves up for a few virgins..
Mine is a much more noble cause...

That's easy to answer, politicians should not be saved
annedyth 10:53:39 PM May 05 2008

this study reconfirms what i've allways known,
in a crisis situation it's
"The Devil take the hindermost"...ie,
Gov. won't save you, nor will professionals period.
sydnlrx 10:51:23 PM May 05 2008

McCains Health Care Plan Proposal:
OK. You have 100 sick people and the means to treat 25 of them. How do you choose?
Sorry Montana, couldn't resist.
---
Now I am, Siam, outta here.....bye!
j9neil 10:50:52 PM May 05 2008

I was wrong and I admit it. Thank you for educating me.
The World Health Organization (WHO) warns that there is a substantial risk of an influenza pandemic within the next few years. One of the strongest candidates is a highly pathogenic variation of the H5N1 subtype of Influenza A virus. As of 2006, prepandemic influenza vaccines are being developed against the most likely
MontanaLonewolf 10:50:19 PM May 05 2008

This! stevenkeppler 10:38:10 PM May 05 2008
This prouves our society is getting more cold ,and uncareing. It is MURDER no matter what way you look at it.
OK. You have 100 sick people and the means to treat 25 of them. How do you choose?

No, because then treatments that WOULD save others would be wasted on those who would not benefit and who would die regardless.
MontanaLonewolf 10:49:00 PM May 05 2008

stevenkeppler 10:38:10 PM May 05 2008
This prouves our society is getting more cold ,and uncareing. It is MURDER no matter what way you look at it.
*************************************************************
OK. You have 100 sick people and the means to treat 25 of them. How do you choose
You choose the ones who have the best chance of long-term survival, NOT the ones who will not benefit from treatment or will die anyway of other things in the short term.
katydid579 10:48:49 PM May 05 2008

MontanaLonewolf 10:46:17 PM May 05 2008

stevenkeppler 10:38:10 PM May 05 2008
This prouves our society is getting more cold ,and uncareing. It is MURDER no matter what way you look at it.
*************************************************************
OK. You have 100 sick people and the means to treat 25 of them. How do you choose?

Lottery
kallgone 10:47:51 PM May 05 2008

There are important lessons to be learned from the Nazi's.

History must never repeat mans inhumanity to man.
MontanaLonewolf 10:46:17 PM May 05 2008

stevenkeppler 10:38:10 PM May 05 2008
This prouves our society is getting more cold ,and uncareing. It is MURDER no matter what way you look at it.
******************************************************************************************
OK. You have 100 sick people and the means to treat 25 of them. How do you choose?
battlerooster14 10:44:42 PM May 05 2008

Report This! "I have a better idea....
How about we don't save the corrupt politicians in OUR Country?
Let every single one of the bastards (and B-tches) die like the lowlife blood sucking scumbags they are! On top of that you can add all of the corrupt judges, lawers, police, federal agents, corporate heads, and any other piece of sh-t that thinks they can lord it over all of us with impunity. I couldn't care less about any of them...let them all die." Fight The Power
Nhft5555 10:44:38 PM May 05 2008

Report This! O.K. the flu shot fairy is signing off. Good luck to all. bye
bunnyfunny47 10:44:24 PM May 05 2008

Report This! You want to get real sick fast...Close enough to any pandemic flu...get on some flight and have to sit next to a sick lady coughing her brains out and then have no other seat to be moved to to get the hell away from this person. This happened to me and I caught it less than a week or so later, and I was so sick I ended up on inhalers to help keep my lungs somewhat clear. This went on for months, infecting both my lungs...Think I'm not pissed? Airlines should be able to refuse someone with a bad cough from even getting on flights since they infect many others later on.
Nhft5555 10:43:26 PM May 05 2008

Report This! do not forget besides the MRSA what will Not be there. doctors and nurses
battlerooster14 10:41:50 PM May 05 2008

Report This! "The Nazi's were performing forced eugenics without a factual or medical basis, just selecting those who fit or failed to fit their ideals.

During a pandemic, when virtually 100% of the world's population is going to contract the disease (whatever it may be) and only 25% can be treated for survival, there HAS to be a slection process or NO ONE survives." Indeed.
Nhft5555 10:41:41 PM May 05 2008

Report This! I think imaginary lists and imaginary vaccines are to prevent panic. I was always horrified that they gave "soap" to the prisoners in the death camps. Stone wrapped in cloth.
Webwarp1 10:41:08 PM May 05 2008

Report This! in a pandemic. First come irst served. when the vents are all used up, as 90% are now on 100 year old alzhiemer patients with cancer. your 3 year old daughter will die in the hosp lobby. hospitals arefull of mrsa,pseudomonis, c diff infested pts today whos guilt ridden, lonely spinster daughters wont let die. Save us Jesus.
j9neil 10:40:10 PM May 05 2008

Report This! bunnyfunny47, I live in South Florida. A few months ago I had to go to the ER. I was shocked, yet happy. They had a sign posted "If you have a cough or sore throat, make an appointment to see your Doctor. We are here for emergencies"
Friday night the illegals would call 911 for a free ambulance ride, then get treated for free at the ER and go home. Real nice, huh?
sydnlrx 10:39:58 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Whoever the poster was who brought up "moral codes of conduct" as a higher standard to achieve in all this - (forget political, ethical) I hope you figure it out- b/c no one in Washington seems to be able to do it.

I cringe at seeing my country turn into the American wasteland due to inaction and stupidity over all this. Not an easy one. Give the man who figures it all out one helluva big prize. He'd deserve it. Ten times over.

Gotta run... ta ta --all!
mizvonderw 10:38:54 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Imcoldbrrr3 09:48:55 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Do you know what a pandemic is?
...........................................................................................................
1938 definition: occurring over a wide geographic area and affecting an exceptionally high proportion of the population
1981 definition: see above
somewhere between 1999 - 2007 definition(can't remember the last time I updated Encarta) - having a widespread effect: existing in the form of a widespread epidemic that affects people in many different countries.

.
Nhft5555 10:38:45 PM May 05 2008

I do not see hysteria I see clueless.
41 - 50 of 2005Prev | Next
cobry1234 10:38:29 PM May 05 2008

BUSHBOTTS BECAUSE THERE BRAIN DEAD ANYWAY
stevenkeppler 10:38:10 PM May 05 2008

This prouves our society is getting more cold ,and uncareing. It is MURDER no matter what way you look at it. And a society that treats there elderly like throw away's is in for a great fall. Wisdom is in the elderly that the young need to become a better society.Those who would do this to the elderly are dumed not only here on this earth but in the next life,for an eternity. Time to wake up people you too will one day be old and those who agree with this trash will one day live to regret it when they are elderly. The stupid things that come out of your mouth when you are young will one day bite you right in the rear when you get older think about it everyone gets old everyone unless they die before that time comes . This has become a throw away society it is an evil thing indeed.
MontanaLonewolf 10:36:37 PM May 05 2008

j9neil 10:31:15 PM May 05 2008
I think this entire thing is mass hysteria.
*******************************************************************************************
No, a pandemic is inevitable. Just look at history. The Black Death and, just 90 years ago, the Spanish Flu Pandemic (which is a misnomer because it started in Haskell County KS, USA).

"The Great Influenza" is a great book of what happened in 1917-1918.
Nhft5555 10:36:33 PM May 05 2008

Report This! HA! When I ran thru the white "tent" for bio washing they told me I would have to take off my ring first. No way I will take my chances with the burn lol
kallgone 10:36:21 PM May 05 2008

Report This! I actually know a man who died from bird flu.
j9neil 10:35:47 PM May 05 2008

Report This! MMMmmm, I bet those brushes would feel good on my back!
kallgone 10:35:42 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Stock piling meds is illegal and you could have more then you bargained for with that bit of advice.

Besides what would you stockpile anyway? BP meds, insulin?

What do you think Afganisitan is all about? Poppies?
MontanaLonewolf 10:34:22 PM May 05 2008

Report This! arthurhayzlett 10:29:02 PM May 05 2008
I say let THEM all die, so WE can rebuild America!
*************************************************************
There's a small problem with that idea. A disease doesn't CARE what your religious or political preferences are. It will infect everyone equally.
bunnyfunny47 10:34:20 PM May 05 2008

Report This! You dip!
It's not the elderly that's putting a drain on our medical insurance programs, it's all these illegals floating into this country by the s- loads. Add on to this thousands of un-wed mothers collecting benifits under "Who’D Daddy programs". A good number of elderly have Medicare in addition to Blue Cross or whatever to cover their care. These people have worked all their lives and deserve the best of care; yet I don't subscribe to medical interventions to prolong life..Because when it's time to go, It's time to go.
sydnlrx 10:33:58 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Nhft5555 10:29:55 PM May 05 2008

Report This! Have you had any city wide disaster training? We haven,t. It got cancelled. Not kidding here. Govt sent money to all cities for this and Nashville is unprepared.
==
Actually am a member/volunteer with the NC Medical Reserve Corps here in Central NC. They don't do alot, but then, we've never been truly 'tested'. "Tested" is purely hypothetical, hope it stays that way. (Rose glasses syndrome).

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